Wednesday
Jun162010
Gotten or got?
Wednesday, June 16, 2010 at 8:19AM
Janie asks in a comment here, ‘Will you please take on the usage of ‘gotten’ as the past participle of the verb ‘to get’? It’s ‘got’. [But I'm sure I'll hear a lot of flak about it.]’
If you’re on my half of the Atlantic, Janie, you’re right. The past participle of the verb ‘get’ is undoubtedly ‘got’. If you’re on the American side things are different. You can choose to say ‘got’ but it’s grammatically correct to say ‘gotten’ too. That’s the funny thing about new countries. For some reason their language gets frozen to an extent, in a way that doesn’t happen in their mother lands.
Winston Churchill famously once said that Britain and America were two countries divided by a common language. He was spot on. America has a lot of words that Brits regard as weird amendments to our pure mother tongue. Nothing could be further than the truth. ‘Gotten’ is old, traditional English. Shakespeare used it. Here’s the messenger in Henry IV Part Two…
Over the years the English have mangled and shortened our language and forgotten some of the original. You may regard us as misbegotten for doing so but that’s what language is like the more you use it. Changeable.
Lots of the American English usages Brits find strange are in fact more ‘pure’ and, if you want to look at it that way, ‘correct’ than what we now regard as the Queen’s English. ‘Fall’ for ‘autumn’ goes back to Elizabethan times but is never heard in the UK today. Similarly I suspect Brits haven’t used the word ‘period’ for ‘full stop’ for centuries.
Americans have kept hold of words the English abandoned long ago, some so far in the past we no longer know what they mean. ‘Broil’ foxes the average Brit – is that boil or something? Yet Shakespeare used the word frequently – this from Richard III:
‘Diaper’ was in use in Elizabethan England, clearly sailed with the Mayflower and stayed in America while dying out in its land of origin. Walk into an English plumber and waffle on about ‘faucets’ and ‘spigots’ and no one will have a clue what you’re talking about. Here’s that rogue Pistol in The Merry Wives of Windsor…
Some American oddities – ‘druthers’ for example – are inventions. Other usages are plain bizarre – never ask for an ‘English muffin’ in England because you’ll be met with blank looks. But the honest truth is that any American assailed by a Brit for mangling the glorious English language can probably turn round and point out, with plenty of justification, that his version is more ‘traditional’ than ours.
Not that tradition matters much. Language is a living thing. It evolves under Darwinian principles mostly, except when a touch of colonial fundamentalism throws a spanner in the works for a while. The Canadian version of French, Mexican Spanish and even the Italian of North American immigrants to America from the late 19th and early 20th all contain words you no longer hear back ‘home’. Each to their own.
So ‘gotten’ isn’t ‘wrong’. It’s just optional and, to these ears anyway, a touch ugly. I wouldn’t use it even if I could.
If you’re on my half of the Atlantic, Janie, you’re right. The past participle of the verb ‘get’ is undoubtedly ‘got’. If you’re on the American side things are different. You can choose to say ‘got’ but it’s grammatically correct to say ‘gotten’ too. That’s the funny thing about new countries. For some reason their language gets frozen to an extent, in a way that doesn’t happen in their mother lands.
Winston Churchill famously once said that Britain and America were two countries divided by a common language. He was spot on. America has a lot of words that Brits regard as weird amendments to our pure mother tongue. Nothing could be further than the truth. ‘Gotten’ is old, traditional English. Shakespeare used it. Here’s the messenger in Henry IV Part Two…
Jack Cade hath gotten London bridge
Over the years the English have mangled and shortened our language and forgotten some of the original. You may regard us as misbegotten for doing so but that’s what language is like the more you use it. Changeable.
Lots of the American English usages Brits find strange are in fact more ‘pure’ and, if you want to look at it that way, ‘correct’ than what we now regard as the Queen’s English. ‘Fall’ for ‘autumn’ goes back to Elizabethan times but is never heard in the UK today. Similarly I suspect Brits haven’t used the word ‘period’ for ‘full stop’ for centuries.
Americans have kept hold of words the English abandoned long ago, some so far in the past we no longer know what they mean. ‘Broil’ foxes the average Brit – is that boil or something? Yet Shakespeare used the word frequently – this from Richard III:
And being seated, and domestic broils
‘Diaper’ was in use in Elizabethan England, clearly sailed with the Mayflower and stayed in America while dying out in its land of origin. Walk into an English plumber and waffle on about ‘faucets’ and ‘spigots’ and no one will have a clue what you’re talking about. Here’s that rogue Pistol in The Merry Wives of Windsor…
O base Hungarian wight! wilt thou the spigot wield?
Some American oddities – ‘druthers’ for example – are inventions. Other usages are plain bizarre – never ask for an ‘English muffin’ in England because you’ll be met with blank looks. But the honest truth is that any American assailed by a Brit for mangling the glorious English language can probably turn round and point out, with plenty of justification, that his version is more ‘traditional’ than ours.
Not that tradition matters much. Language is a living thing. It evolves under Darwinian principles mostly, except when a touch of colonial fundamentalism throws a spanner in the works for a while. The Canadian version of French, Mexican Spanish and even the Italian of North American immigrants to America from the late 19th and early 20th all contain words you no longer hear back ‘home’. Each to their own.
So ‘gotten’ isn’t ‘wrong’. It’s just optional and, to these ears anyway, a touch ugly. I wouldn’t use it even if I could.
Reader Comments (12)
I wondered why, when I visited England (a lovely B&B in Bath, Somerset) why there weren't any ENGLISH MUFFINS. I figured that they would be overflowing with them... too many to count... and I didn't even have one. What a downer.
Similarly, I asked for whole grain toast four out of the five mornings (by the third day it was just a social experiement), all to different staff, and and I got the "Oh you Americans and your brown breads," answer from all four. I had no idea that Americans carried a stereotype of liking whole wheat bread! I suppose I could have alleviated the situation by also asking for kippers...
This really doesn't have anything to do with word variations between our cultures, but you mentioned English Muffins and I haven't had breakfast yet.
-Ken
You're in for a REALLY big shock when you go to Italy and ask for peperoni on your pizza....
the same thing happens with other languages. my mother tongue is german. i lived in paraguay for a few years, where there are lots of german mennonites, many of whom had immigrated before WW2. they used some turns of phrases, words and pronunciations that seemed quite odd to me. conversely, when i taught german to spanish-speaking people, my mennonite friends were perplexed why i taught them strange and seemingly useless words - i remember the word "taschenschirm" ("pocket umbrella") - a word that had not even existed when their fathers had left germany, and which had become quite a household word, thanks to a company that produced them and done a great job marketing their product.
I suspect "English muffins" are an American corruption of crumpets.
Also: I suspect David is misattributing a Shaw quote to Churchill! Another victimization of the Irish!
okay, i need to come to the rescue of the english muffin! (when you come to north america, david, do you have one?) in fact, i will cite someone these good language people (http://www.worldwidewords.org/topicalwords/tw-cru1.htm), in connection with a harry potter translation;
"It is true that English muffins and crumpets are related things, though neither should be (or could be) confused with an American muffin, which to British eyes and taste buds is a sweet-tasting cake. Both muffins and crumpets are flat discs about three inches across and an inch or so deep, cooked in a pan or on a griddle. The main difference between them lies in the composition of the mixture used, which makes muffins feel and taste rather more like bread; in addition, muffins are baked on both sides, so they must be cut in two before they can be toasted. With crumpets, the cooking process generates distinctive deep dimples on one side.
It’s the cultural associations — immediately recognisable to most English readers — that matter most. Toasting crumpets for tea in front of an open fire on winter days in the company of parents or friends is an old image of comfortable, unthreatening middle-class English life of an older period. It’s associated especially with boarding school, and features in school stories going back more than a century, of which the Harry Potter books are just the most recent. You can’t expect an American youngster to appreciate all these subtleties, but to remove the potential of doing so is a pity."
You have entered a linguistic minefield. I am from Yorkshire so we don't have crumpets only pikelets. We do have muffins in the UK now but I think they came in from the US so really they should be called 'American Muffins'. I do like muffins, here or in the US. In moderation.
I am truly shocked! Muffins are NOTHING like crumpets. See accurate description below. That quote appears to have been attributed to Churchill, Shaw, Wilde and Bertrand Russell. Maybe they all said it.
David! Wait!
In America, "muffins" and "English muffins" are completely different. A muffin is a small, cake-like thing, the popularity of which has been subsumed in recent years by the cupcake. An English muffin is a low, round disc of yeasted bread, usually dusted with corn meal. There's also a Portuguese muffin, which are larger, and richer.
I think that the English muffin is an American take on the crumpet. I'll admit to loving them both, but I prefer crumpets.
I have yet to experience the satisfaction of a pikelet.
And while I did toast crumpets at boarding school, nothing about my time there, crumpets included, inspires waves of soothing nostalgia.
I know the difference between an American muffin and an 'English' muffin! English ones don't have bananas in them and all that crap. The 'English' muffin is nothing like a true crumpet or, more properly, 'pikelet'. As detailed above, a crumpet/pikelet has holes in top and is toasted in one piece.
This may help - http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/nov/14/crumpets-muffins-pikelets-farls
Now, if you could just find me a good recipe for Hovis bread, the dense version, I would be in heaven, and maybe 'gotten' — oh, it pains me — some religion as well. The kind where you butter the end of the loaf, then slice the bread 1/16" thick, and it holds up. Also, best toast in the world.
Crumpets have better holes for butter.